Composer Based Install and Dependency Management

[nibra]

Using Composer, we'll

• get easy installation (of predefined packages)
• enable extensions to require external libraries

[nibra]

Associated Pull Request: #8

[laoneo]

Then we need https://medium.com/@yanick.witschi/composer-cloud-resolver-e64254f5728e

[nibra]

Thank you for the link, @laoneo!

[anibalsanchez]

If Joomla is going to be a Composer Project, it must use the standard tools that Composer offers.

Statamic is a good example of how to build a CMS around Composer: https://statamic.dev/quick-start

composer create-project --prefer-dist statamic/statamic cyberspace-place

Contao's Cloud Resolver is a good experimental service, but it is not a reliable service. Check these comments: contao/contao-manager#552

[brianteeman]

Which is why its never going to be an option for a shared hosting cms

[anibalsanchez]

So, from the business point of view, the question is if it's better to support Joomla as a Composer Project or continue to support only the shared hosting CMS space and leave the space to Statamic, Craft, October, etc.

In my view, a Composer-enabled Joomla would be a killer in the CMS area.

[Llewellynvdm]

I agree we should find away for both options to co-exist.

[brianteeman]

Here is a hammer you can use - it will help you get the final nail in the coffin

[anibalsanchez]

Talking about hammers, nails, and coffins is not a valid argument.

I guess you don't like the idea of a composer-enabled Joomla competing with others CMS that are born in that market.

[Llewellynvdm]

Here is a hammer you can use - it will help you get the final nail in the coffin

No this is not true, since I know you have many times made your agenda very clear, you are not interested in making Joomla more attractive to the corporate market and you are doing everything to discourage it, including changes that will work in that direction.

Having a CMS that can run as always on a shared hosting environment, as well as be able to be extended with composer by the end user is a step forward.

Really, @brianteeman to keep Joomla somehow simple for the less technical world of website developers who have low budgets is not working.... I am living and working in Africa where I have done much work with many low budget projects, and most of them always ask why Joomla is so limited, and outdated with regards to these kinds of basic needs of composer libraries integration options. Which isolate Joomla from the rest of the PHP world for the end-user.

When I speak at universities and colleges these are always the reasons given to why they are not interested in Joomla. Hey even during my own studies I keep running into the isolation of Joomla from the rest of the PHP worlds direction of collaboration.

Honestly often times was it not that I insisted that we use Joomla, these low budget shared hosting websites would have moved to a more integrated PHP solution with simple sFTP as the workaround.

Understanding computer science must always mean that we improve our processes to be more harmonious with the rest of the industry. Keeping Joomla away from the ability to be extended for example with composer by the end user is counter productive and that is just the simple truth. I mean why do you thing the Joomla Framework was made, it was the first step in the right direction of PHP architecture.

So just shouting its ...final nail in the coffin is simply propaganda to serve your personal agenda, or at-least that is how it looks to me. Since I have never seen any small project who want to use simple and/or outdated tools to realize their huge dreams. They want the best tools and most advanced tools, they want to use the same tools that the corporate world is using. Believe me, I have sat in many many meetings, and if I am not able to prove that Joomla can hold its ground as a PHP project with tools like October CMS, or Drupal.... then they are simple not interested.

Go look at the Joomla JUG groups map.... tell me why are there so few African teams? because Joomla is not advance enough to impress the upcoming generation of developers in Africa. This I know first hand...

We must wake-up, the real "..nail in the coffin" are those who are holding Joomla back...

[brianteeman]

IF both composer and regular can work then fine - waste your time developing it.
IF you say only composer then no - absolutely not

Understanding computer science must always mean that we improve our processes to be more harmonious with the rest of the industry. Keeping Joomla away from the ability to be extended for example with composer by the end user is counter productive and that is just the simple truth. I mean why do you thing the Joomla Framework was made, it was the first step in the right direction of PHP architecture.

Oh of course I forgot what a success the framework has been - forgive me for not noticing the handful of people using it and the even smaller number of people contributing development.

Lets stick to measurable facts and not personal attacks. The vast majority of joomla sites are hosted on shared hosting which will not provide the ability to use a command line composer. Joomla is designed as a monolith and using composer makes little sense for that and as for extensions no developer is going to maintain the two separate versions that would be required.

Composer is great for the job it does and I use it everyday for that job. Installing and maintaining a mass market cms is not that job. If I really wanted to build a site using composer then I wouldn't look beyond real frameworks such as symfony and laravel.

Joomla 4 took so long because two years were wasted working on pythagoras and other crazy schemes that are not suitable for our userbase. If people really did want that then it wouldnt have been abandoned. The reality is that no matter how much a few people tried to force that approach there were no real developers interested in working on it.

Finally I make no apology at all for putting our userbase first. Maybe its because I've been around in the project for a long time but every few years I see the same arguments about "we must move to the corporate world" and make changes that will abandon all the existing users. Those arguments have never been led by anyone who has any real connection to the joomla marketplace and always die when they realise that no one else is interested in doing the work for them.

[Llewellynvdm]

This reply is not fair and mostly not true either... I have been using Joomla since 2008, and the only reason this always dies is because there is a push-back from people like you, and that is not a personal attack just an obvious observation. All my comments about your negative dealings with any corporate market share can only be seen as an attack if it is not true, in which case I make apologies...

You say no... and yet this is not your call. We all have a say in the matter.

You talk about our userbase... but its like you are completely ignoring the reality that the majority already left. The only reason the framework is struggling to gain traction is simple the same reason as this conversation. The advance developers who would make it work, leaves... or just never come closer when they read threads like these, only a handful stayed around, and they are overloaded.

Most developers who would like to see this happen are not the kind that will waist time building something that does not get adopted into Joomla. They are specialist in their field and do not have time for debates about what is obviously right, they just walk away...

How much I would like to get out of this tug-of-war and see freedom return to Joomla. Why can't we dream, why can't we innovate.

The answer to this problem of both a composer and easy deployment approach is not even what the last few comments are about. No it is a debate about whether the option should even be investigated and documented in a RFC.

What is really very discouraging to me is the obvious negative statements from you:

Which is why its never going to be an option for a shared hosting cms

Here is a hammer you can use - it will help you get the final nail in the coffin

...can work then fine - waste your time developing it.

To make it sound like your the one who is looking out for the userbase, is counter productive, and is kind of an accusation as if others don't. Sure some may not... but most volunteers in Joomla are sincere and do care. When they ask for change you or I don't like, that does not by default make them selfish, and wrong. That is why I call that kind of talk propaganda, as it is not true, and serious stereotyping. Which again is not helpful to the project or its userbase.

The link shared above:

Then we need https://medium.com/@yanick.witschi/composer-cloud-resolver-e64254f5728e

Was very informative and serious innovative solution the the very same issue we have. They realized the need, and build a GUI solution for their CMS.

I really think we can do the same... in fact I can already see a SAAS solution.

[brianteeman]

You get no where with personal attacks

[Llewellynvdm]

Neither do you...