Implementing ActivityPub and Zot support in SSB clients

[strypey]

First thing, this may be a totally inappropriate place to discuss this. If so, please feel free to tell me so, and direct me to a more appropriate forum for discussion. Please don't ask me to discuss it on Scuttlebutt though, for three reasons;

1. I have a 32-bit PC (running GNU-Linux) so AFAIK there isn't an SSB client I can use yet. At least not without compiling from source and potentially spending hours in dependency hell every time there is an update. No thanks ;-P

2. I think it's worth having a dedicated channel for dev-related discussion accessible to folks who aren't yet SSB users, as this may be a way to resolve issues (or clear up misunderstandings) that are preventing them using SSB (eg there is a client with a 32-bit release, I just don't know about it)

3. I think too much meta-discussion about SSB dev on the SSB network is off-putting to non-dev users. I've been told as much in the fediverse by former SSB users.

Anyway, to biz. I'd love to see the network effect of the Scuttle-verse combine forces with those of the fediverse. If I could move to Scuttlebutt, and still keep up contact with my followees/ followers on sites running GNU Social, Mastodon, Friendica etc, without having to maintain two social network presences, that would make using an SSB client much more attractive to me. It would also open up a much larger range of potential friend connection to people already using SSB.

The quickest way to do that would be to create some kind of integration with ActivityPub. AP is far from perfect, but except for Diaspora, all of the apps currently making up the OStatus fediverse and the Diaspora federation are going to be rolling it out (or have already). Plus a range of other (micro-)blogging, file-storage, media-sharing, and code forge apps have plans to implement it too. AP has both a server-to-server and server-to-client protocol suites in the standard, so the fact that SSB is P2P not server-based isn't necessarily a show-stopper.

I also suggest taking a look at whether you could inter-operate with Zot somehow. It's a ground-breaking protocol that allows cool things like Nomadic Identity and secure, decentralized, private messaging. Hubzilla is currently the only app that implements it, but the process of creating a separate implementation, especially one that isn't a GLAMP stack (Hubzilla is PHP and hubs usually use MySQL), could really help other devs get their heads around it.

[dominictarr]

@strypey there isn't a 32 bit linux release of patchwork, but patchfoo is just a simple local web api (without even using javascript)

https://github.com/ssbc/patchfoo you should definitely be able to run that, if you can install scuttlebot.

[evbogue]

@dominictarr Yes, but you can't install the latest patchfoo without scuttlebot and ssb-npm. This was the main topic of the last ssbc call: how to make it easier to bootstrap ssb and ssb-npm without npm?

@strypey I think here can be the right place to discuss this issue!

There are two primary reasons why dev conversation happens on ssb:

• it works! and has for many years now
• we're way into dogfooding our software, as using our software gives us a huge incentive to make it better.

Would you be up for trying to clone scuttlebot down and compiling from source? From there we can discuss lighter client options.

[strypey]

@evbogue

Would you be up for trying to clone scuttlebot down and compiling from source? From there we can discuss lighter client options.

Thanks for the friendly invite, but see points 1) and 2) ;)

Plus, a new LTS version of Trisquel (the GNU-Linux distro I use) has finally been released and I'm about to start transitioning over, which will chew up some time. I'm also trying to carve out some time to do test installs of a few server packages (eg some teachers I know want a community-hosted Moodle instance). I'm keen to try out Scuttlebutt at some point, but I really don't have time to be compiling apps from source right now, so it probably won't happen until there's a graphical client with a 32-bit AppImage, a PPA, or its in the Debian repos ;)

I think here can be the right place to discuss this issue!

Great! Let's do that :)

BTW @dominictarr I believe we know each other from when I helped you move some materials from a storage room into the Maker Space you were running at Creative Cities in Welly? Been following your work on SSB from a distance with some interest, and just added some comments to the HN thread about Scuttlebutt as a potential FB replacement.

[dominictarr]

BTW @dominictarr I believe we know each other from when I helped you move some materials from a storage room into the Maker Space.

That sounds quite likely but was a very long time ago...
OH, CLICK, now I remember you - you are Stripey

@evbogue what is the difference between the patchfoo you can npm install and the latest (tbh, imo it should just be npm installable, or something like that)

so it probably won't happen until there's a graphical client with a 32-bit AppImage, a PPA, or its in the Debian repos

@strypey what about npm install?

[strypey]

On 2018-04-30 22:53, Dominic Tarr wrote: OH, CLICK, now I remember you - you are _Stripey_

That's me :)

@strypey what about npm install?

I've never npm'd before, but I'd be willing to give it a go. If you folks don't mind though, I'd prefer to talk about the potential for fediverse protocol bridging (see OP) in this Issue on GH. Just so other fediverse folks can easily follow the discussion, and chime in when I get important technical details wrong ;-P

[soapdog]

@strypey talking about AP, I think there is a lot of work needed to map from scuttlebutt to ActivityPub since activities in that protocol are updatable as can be seen on the spec. Right now, posts on ssb are not editable. This could of course be implemented by creating new ActivityPub message type and the necessary submessages for CRUD.

If such collection of messages is implemented, then reliable pubservers could run a plugin to be able to listen and respond to ActivityPub requests thus becoming Fediverse Instances in the eyes of the rest of the fediverse but without breaking the decentralized nature of ssb. So in my humble and shallow view, this requires two large steps:

Implement ActivityPub messages

These are a collection of messages that enable CRUD of ActivityPub activities. It is not unlike how git-ssb is able to update repos. If there were messages to record all types of actions possible in ActivityPub, then flume could serve as a database of activities and their change history.

Create plugin for pubservers to exchange data with fediverse

Once ssb can store AP data, pubservers can become gateways to the fediverse by replicating (and converting while doing that) messages/activities from ssb into AP.

So if someone from Mastodon follows an SSB user (with an AP account such as @userId@pub.domain), the pub received the follow request, converts it to the appropriate ssb-activity-pub message (probably something similar to our current contact message but marked as AP) and replicate that message until it reaches the chosen contact.

When the contact follows back, the pub server upon seeing that message, converts it into the appropriate AP HTTP Request for the fediverse and sends it to that user instance.

What are your thoughts on that @dominictarr @staltz @strypey @evbogue? I'd be game to work on this after I finish my current ssb grant.

[strypey]

@soapdog sounds fantastic to me. Are you familiar with Bridgy-Fed? They aim to do a similar thing for the IndieWeb network that your proposal would do for the SSB network. Maybe there's some way to work in with them, borrow code from them, or just get some ideas from the way they handle the various fediverse protocols?

[wakest]

@soapdog are you still working on your current grant? Is there any footwork that would help you in this mission that a non dev (but still quite technically minded person) might be able to do? Would really love to help get the ball rolling with bridging these two communities.

[Serkan-devel]

But what if the pubserver malforms posts over the AP endpoint?

[soapdog]

@wakest I am still working in my grant, quite focused on it actually. It is now divided into two repos, scuttle-shell, for the host app and patchfox, for the add-on. Unfortunatelly, I don't have the time to devote to this bridge at the moment. I want to see it done as much as you but I can't commit to it.

[soapdog]

@Serkan-devel that can happen... ssb clients can create broken posts and AP clients can also create broken posts. It sucks but it do happens. My own SSB feed has a share of broken posts already.

[Serkan-devel]

@soapdog how do you get broken posts already and is there a way to mitigate it?

[Serkan-devel]

Oh and could the Matrix protocol also be implemented?

[strypey]

@Serkan-devel

could the Matrix protocol also be implemented?

In theory, sure. Will anybody take it on as a project? Don't know. Probably worth creating a separate issue proposing a Matrix protocol, describing the benefits you see in it, and sketching how the UX might work, given that most Matrix implementations so far work as realtime chat.